Comments on: Saddleback Body Count http://pursuingholiness.com/2007/02/saddleback-body-count/ pursuing holiness, following politics Mon, 15 Mar 2010 01:04:55 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Pursuing Holiness » Blog Archive » Saddleback Body Count Redux http://pursuingholiness.com/2007/02/saddleback-body-count/comment-page-1/#comment-32271 Pursuing Holiness » Blog Archive » Saddleback Body Count Redux Sat, 03 Mar 2007 01:09:25 +0000 http://www.pursuingholiness.com/2007/02/08/saddleback-body-count/#comment-32271 [...] three weeks ago, I posted Saddleback Body Count, in which I accused Rick Warren of being deceitful about how Saddleback’s member count. I did [...] [...] three weeks ago, I posted Saddleback Body Count, in which I accused Rick Warren of being deceitful about how Saddleback’s member count. I did [...]

]]> By: Pursuing Holiness » Blog Archive » Oh Noes! http://pursuingholiness.com/2007/02/saddleback-body-count/comment-page-1/#comment-31765 Pursuing Holiness » Blog Archive » Oh Noes! Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:23:04 +0000 http://www.pursuingholiness.com/2007/02/08/saddleback-body-count/#comment-31765 [...] soon - another look at the Saddleback Body Count. Mark Kelly, the News and Editorial Director of Saddleback Church, emailed me. I rather suspect he [...] [...] soon – another look at the Saddleback Body Count. Mark Kelly, the News and Editorial Director of Saddleback Church, emailed me. I rather suspect he [...]

]]> By: Laura http://pursuingholiness.com/2007/02/saddleback-body-count/comment-page-1/#comment-31005 Laura Tue, 13 Feb 2007 21:43:27 +0000 http://www.pursuingholiness.com/2007/02/08/saddleback-body-count/#comment-31005 It's funny you should use the phrase "God's economy" - we just had <a href="http://www.lakeviewchristiancenter.com/sermons.html" rel="nofollow">several sermons</a> on that idea - Committed to God's Economy of Prayer and Committed to God's Economy of Giving. It’s funny you should use the phrase “God’s economy” – we just had several sermons on that idea –

Committed to God’s Economy of Prayer and Committed to God’s Economy of Giving.

]]> By: jeff http://pursuingholiness.com/2007/02/saddleback-body-count/comment-page-1/#comment-31004 jeff Tue, 13 Feb 2007 21:28:04 +0000 http://www.pursuingholiness.com/2007/02/08/saddleback-body-count/#comment-31004 I've been an Associate Pastor in a large church (1000+) and now the Pastor of a small church plant (30+). The questions asked in both settings by pastoral staff and church board: "Why are we not growing?" "What do we need to do in order to start growing?" These questions are asked for several reasons: 1. Affirmation that what you are doing is in line with God's will. 2.The need for dollars to fund ministry and 3. The need for people to serve in ministry. Finally, we as a culture are pragmatists obsessed with performance. Lay men and women are confronted daily with "making and exceeding their numbers", by thier employers. Pastor and people alike need to remind themselves that God's economy is different from the economies of the world.In God's economy He is equally concerned with the breadth, but the depth of the Kingdom. I’ve been an Associate Pastor in a large church (1000+) and now the Pastor of a small church plant (30+). The questions asked in both settings by pastoral staff and church board: “Why are we not growing?”
“What do we need to do in order to start growing?”

These questions are asked for several reasons: 1. Affirmation that what you are doing is in line with God’s will. 2.The need for dollars to fund ministry and 3. The need for people to serve in ministry.

Finally, we as a culture are pragmatists obsessed with performance. Lay men and women are confronted daily with “making and exceeding their numbers”, by thier employers.

Pastor and people alike need to remind themselves that God’s economy is different from the economies of the world.In God’s economy He is equally concerned with the breadth, but the depth of the Kingdom.

]]> By: Shane http://pursuingholiness.com/2007/02/saddleback-body-count/comment-page-1/#comment-30815 Shane Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:44:46 +0000 http://www.pursuingholiness.com/2007/02/08/saddleback-body-count/#comment-30815 I don't know if this is a possibility or not, but often there is a significant difference between "members" and "adherents". Perhaps they had a drop in adherents but a gain in members. It is possible I suppose. Another possibility is that at the time he did the big Passion thing, the surge did happen, but it ebbed away before the end of the year. I don’t know if this is a possibility or not, but often there is a significant difference between “members” and “adherents”. Perhaps they had a drop in adherents but a gain in members. It is possible I suppose. Another possibility is that at the time he did the big Passion thing, the surge did happen, but it ebbed away before the end of the year.

]]> By: Laura http://pursuingholiness.com/2007/02/saddleback-body-count/comment-page-1/#comment-30657 Laura Mon, 12 Feb 2007 04:03:31 +0000 http://www.pursuingholiness.com/2007/02/08/saddleback-body-count/#comment-30657 I guess because it's something we can track. It's certainly not restricted to the US. A friend of mine was a missionary in China - he went over to help train small group leaders. They were coming back with reports of these amazing numbers - even in China, which other than North Korea is (I believe) the fastest growing Church in the world. I think especially in the US which is so money-oriented, there is a pressure for a ministry to prove that it's worth the donations it's receiving. And people do love their statistics. You can count the number of "decisions for Christ" much easier than you can track how much a new Christian has grown in his faith or the influence he has on his family or coworkers. Even the most well-meaning and dedicated pastors can buckle under that pressure. And for these empire-building types, they're practically bent double under the weight of their own goals, so the added pressure can easily break them. It's sad, because they are the first ones to say that His yoke is easy and His burden is light. They just don't believe it. I guess because it’s something we can track. It’s certainly not restricted to the US. A friend of mine was a missionary in China – he went over to help train small group leaders. They were coming back with reports of these amazing numbers – even in China, which other than North Korea is (I believe) the fastest growing Church in the world.

I think especially in the US which is so money-oriented, there is a pressure for a ministry to prove that it’s worth the donations it’s receiving. And people do love their statistics. You can count the number of “decisions for Christ” much easier than you can track how much a new Christian has grown in his faith or the influence he has on his family or coworkers.

Even the most well-meaning and dedicated pastors can buckle under that pressure. And for these empire-building types, they’re practically bent double under the weight of their own goals, so the added pressure can easily break them. It’s sad, because they are the first ones to say that His yoke is easy and His burden is light. They just don’t believe it.

]]> By: Ben http://pursuingholiness.com/2007/02/saddleback-body-count/comment-page-1/#comment-30629 Ben Mon, 12 Feb 2007 02:06:37 +0000 http://www.pursuingholiness.com/2007/02/08/saddleback-body-count/#comment-30629 Insightful post Laura--albeit disappointing. I sure hope Pastor Warren just got the facts a bit mixed up. But I've seen the same thing occur in "missions marketing." It's a real bummer to read about the number of souls won for Christ, when the facts prove otherwise. Why are we (in the U.S.) so caught up in the numbers game? Insightful post Laura–albeit disappointing. I sure hope Pastor Warren just got the facts a bit mixed up. But I’ve seen the same thing occur in “missions marketing.” It’s a real bummer to read about the number of souls won for Christ, when the facts prove otherwise. Why are we (in the U.S.) so caught up in the numbers game?

]]>