How can Christians support Obama?
October 9, 2008 by Laura | Trackback URI
I am frustrated almost beyond belief that any Christian can support Obama. Once you get past the soaring rhetoric, you have a man who openly supported infanticide and then lied about it. He is a man who will implement - by his own admission - socialist policies that will harm America. Those policies directly harm the church; they bring people even further away from a reliance on God. He is a man whose campaign has engaged in thuggish tactics, including intimidation to limit others free speech - all things liberals freely accuse George Bush of, but are oddly silent on when it comes to Obama. He is a man who stayed in a church for TWENTY YEARS where his paster felt perfectly comfortable screaming “God damn America!” and engaging in lunatic tin-foil-hatted conspiracy mongering including claiming that the government invented AIDS to kill black people. And on all those things I just listed, Obama has denied, obfuscated, ducked the questions, outright lied about, and when all else fails, claims that such concerns are racist.
Frankly, I look at Christians who support Obama and wonder if they have lost their minds. I don’t like John McCain. But he is BY FAR a better man and a better leader than Barack Obama. I don’t like Hillary, but she deserved the nomination and also would have been a better leader. Each of the things I listed about Obama is proved beyond any shadow of a doubt, no matter how you parse or try to excuse it. Obama says things that sound good, especially in this post-modern culture. But Christians should have better judgment.
Forget the long list of people that he’d have us forget about, including people who have attempted and facilitated murder like Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn and who openly state they are not sorry for doing so. Forget his felon associates like Tony Rezko, who bought the lot next door to the Obamas which is fenced in and part of the Obama’s yard. Forget the fact that he has funneled taxpayer money to his family, friends, and wife’s employer. Forget all that. Infanticide. Not abortion rights, which I still disagree with, but infanticide. WHY isn’t that enough of a reason to repudiate this man? HOW can you support him? I simply do not understand it. Forget the untrue sophistry that Obama’s policies would prevent more abortions that repealing Roe. I’m not talking about abortion. I’m talking about evil; yes, EVIL. Obama voted against a bill that would have provided medical care to babies that survived abortion even though his own committee ensured that it would NOT have affected abortion rights. I’m talking about the character of a man who refused to protect these innocent, helpless victims of abortion. I don’t have to like John McCain or Hillary Clinton to believe that either one of them is a better human being and would make a better president than Barack Obama.
I don’t understand you Christian Obama supporters. I probably will never understand you; how you can claim the high moral ground yet still support this man.
We know from Romans 13 that it is ultimately God who selects our leaders. But believing what I do about Obama (and I have provided the links to support my beliefs, which are well-substantiated) I will do what I can to spread the truth about him and encourage people to vote against him. If he is elected, I will trust in God’s sovereignty and goodness, and remember that
The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.
(Proverbs 16:4)
and that this is ultimately not my home:
They did not receive the things God had promised, but from a long way off they saw them and welcomed them, and admitted openly that they were foreigners and refugees on earth. Those who say such things make it clear that they are looking for a country of their own. They did not keep thinking about the country they had left; if they had, they would have had the chance to return. Instead, it was a better country they longed for, the heavenly country. And so God is not ashamed for them to call him their God, because he has prepared a city for them.
(Hebrews 11:13-16)
Added: in response to Rebecca’s comment and anyone else who wants to accuse me of judging other people’s Christian beliefs: No, I’m not questioning anyone’s salvation (although I also don’t believe that is out of bounds; for example I certainly question Fred Phelp’s salvation and so should you.) Re-read the post. I’m saying, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOU AND YOUR PRIORITIES AT ALL. I really don’t. It’s that simple. I don’t get it. I don’t get what moves you.
I am not a one issue voter. I really don’t care whether Roe v. Wade is overturned, for example, because I believe the root problem of abortion needs to be resolved in people’s hearts: we need to learn to want babies more and love ourselves less. That’s my opinion, and I’m entitled to it. (If you read this blog, you’re entitled to it also.) But this isn’t about abortion.
This is a deal-breaker for me. And yes, I did at one time consider voting for Obama - not because I support him but as a strategic vote; because I think McCain, with a Democratic Congress, will successfully pass more laws that I am against, than Obama will with a Dem majority Congress and a determined GOP opposition. I eventually decided, very reluctantly, to support McCain. But after learning that Obama refused to vote to protect these babies, I concluded that there is no way on earth I could ever vote for such a man. This is wrong on such a deep level, it offends me so deeply that I just can’t get past it. I don’t like him for other reasons, reasons that I’ve listed. But even if on every other issue Barack Obama and I were in complete agreement, this one issue would trump it all. How could he do it, and how can you support him, knowing this? The basic facts are not in dispute, they are a matter of public record. This is how he voted, repeatedly. In spite of the fact that his own committee took measures to protect abortion rights, he still could not bring himself to vote to protect these infants. To me, that is a character issue on such a major scale that it trumps everything else.
You have other priorities, like Rebecca? That’s your right. Vote your conscience. My response to Rebecca was inflammatory as was her “oil war” characterization, but really, that’s the bottom line, isn’t it? We’re all going to vote based on what is important to us. That’s how it should be.
As for “judging” and “arrogance” and all that - be honest. Every time we form an opinion, we weigh and measure all kinds of things, and when we finally come to that belief, whatever it is, it is because we have concluded it is superior to the other options. And when other people disagree, if you find them unpersuasive, then you don’t think their belief is equal to yours. You think yours is better. If theirs was better, you would join them. That’s how it works. So let’s not have any of this nonsense about how it’s arrogant and presumptuous. It’s not.
ADDED: Much more on Obama and abortion here.
ADDED x2: Comments closed, mostly because you Obamabots kept repeating the exact same things previous Obamabots had posted; things that had already been repeatedly responded to upthread.
How dare you presume to judge other’s Christian beliefs. You are so amazingly arrogant to judge people based on their political beliefs. I am one of those “crazy Christians” who will be voting for Obama. I believe that Obama is the better choice towards fiscal responsibility and to get us out of this oil war! I don’t care who you vote for and who you believe in. I am definitely not arrogant enough to say who you should vote for because of your religious views.
So, Rebecca, for you, “fiscal responsibility” and the “oil war” trump the fact that Obama voted four times to let little babies die in a broom closet. Good for you for admitting it.
And, oh yes, I do “dare.” Just like you do. Everyone with an opinion “dares.” Some people are just hypocritical enough to pretend they don’t.
I strongly suggest you investigate before you write. you are totally wrong. Senator Obama never signed any such law it was already a State Law.
http://www.matthew25.org
First of all, Barbara, I didn’t say he signed it. I said he voted against it. Which he did. Repeatedly. I strongly suggest read a bit more slowly before you respond next time. I also suggest you do a little investigating of your own. Even FactCheck says Barack Obama voted against legal protections (meaning the legal imperative to be treated medically instead of left to die) for infants which survive abortion. The bills he voted against affirmed these babies’ personhood. The Illinois law which was already in effect which
left these babies to die in a closet. That’s what started all this. Obama did not oppose it on the grounds that it was unnecessary law. He opposed it, he said, because he felt it jeopardized abortion rights. When that impediment was removed, he voted against it again. Then he lied about it. Here is what FactCheck states:
There was NO REASON for him to vote against this bill. It DID NOT affect abortion rights.
Humans have a God-given right to be secure in their property. See Commandments 8 and 10, Ten Commandments. As far as I’m concerned, all socialists are Satanic. Just about everything in Obama’s message fosters envy. Anyone who votes for him supports covetous greed.
First, let me state upfront that I still haven’t made up my mind who I want to vote for. I am disturbed by some of the things that have come out regarding Obama and I am disappointed in McCain for bringing Sarah Palin into his campaign, as well as a few other things. But, it is my understanding that Obama did vote for the Federal version of the Born Alive Act and that he voted against the state one because they already have a law on the books that provides the same protection. I could be wrong, but I do believe that is what I read.
Another note … regarding all socialists are satanists … I think that comment is seriously out of line and has no biblical foundation at all. If someone believes we should help our brothers and sisters, that we should have a food stamp program, or medical cards for kids, and WIC for babies … and that makes them a socialist … I am proud to be one. I will proclaim it from the mountain tops and will do so as a Christian. We cannot heap those needs onto the church alone because they will break under the weight. We, as Christians alone, cannot provide for all those needs.
And, honestly, I find it hard to believe any Christian who truly believes in Christ and loves Him and has felt His love … could be so stingy and selfish that they would have a fit about some of their tax dollars going to those programs when they pay way more in taxes for corporate welfare. I would much rather help a struggling mother go to college and feed her children … than big business. I am more than happy to pay taxes for that.
I don’t support corporate welfare any more than other kind of welfare, but you are wrong to suggest that we are giving greatly to corporations. This recent bailout aside (which I opposed but both candidates supported), we waste way more money on Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid than on just about anything else. In fact, this entire financial crisis occurred because Democrats tried to give houses to poor people and minorities who couldn’t afford them.
The truth is, if you are more than happy to pay extra taxes to support government causes, NO ONE is currently stopping you from doing so.
But let me ask you something, Angel: Do you believe in liberty? Or would you rather just take people’s wealth away from them (by force) to support your own beliefs?
Liberty is fine in America. Our country was built on the foundation of liberty and we have a Bill of Rights to prove it. The thing with liberty is … that to each person it means something different. Obviously, you must feel your liberty is denied because your tax dollar helps someone less fortunate. I may feel the same about my tax dollar going to make nuclear weapons or paying for the war in Iraq.
But, I don’t. While I don’t like that my tax dollars pay for things like war and weapons that I do not believe we need … I have the liberty to go some place else if I don’t like it. There is obviously a lot of people that feel we need to pay for those things and if I had my way, they would think I was denying their liberty to do with their money as they see fit.
That doesn’t change the fact that what you said has no biblical foundation and is still uncalled for.
It was perfectly called for, and I’ll say it again: Socialists are Satanic. The evil one has scored a tremendous victory this past century. In order to completely erode God’s prohibition on covetousness, Satan merely had to convince people that the possibility of voluntary charity justifies their intentional, involuntary appropriation. That is, if someone might conceivably feel sorry for you, it’s okay to covet or steal.
Under this godless doctrine, if you would rather someone else pay your health costs, all you have to do is vote in a candidate (like Barack Obama) who will take wealth from others to pay for your medicine. After all, it’s your “right.”
In reality, neither desire nor “need” ever justifies covetousness (Proverbs 30:7-9). In none of your responses have you even tried to reconcile your position with the Ten Commandments, which you claim to support.
And these are all just moral arguments. Forget completely that socialism has failed throughout history. Forget that socialism has grown our national debt by leaps and bounds. You have said that supplying all the world’s needs would break the back of the church. I’ve got news for you: That goal has already broken the back of the Soviet Union, and it is currently breaking the back of America as well. Did you know that as an American citizen, you currently owe (as do all living Americans, including infants and homeless people) about $33,000 in debt? That debt, of course, falls on top of whatever personal debt you may already have.
Laura,
Thanks for the post. You said it well - exactly how I feel. I, like you, just don’t get why a Christian would vote for Obama based merely on this issue of infanticide. I have many (Christian) friends who are very excited about the Obama, and I just scratch my head. For me this one issue impacts in one form or another, every other decision this man will make if he gains the Presidency of the United Sates. Aside from the matter of one’s faith, this is an issue of character. I’m not all that crazy about McCain, but on the issue of character he is head and shoulders above Obama.
You have no concept of Christian values, in my opinion. You come off as someone so arrogant. I pray you are never humbled or in need of help. The Bible … JESUS … speaks volumes on caring for the poor, the widow, the disadvantaged and I have never in my life seen anyone call giving a person food or someone needing help to feed or house themselves as them committing that particular sin … to covet.
Also, our national debt has grown by leaps and bounds by the war in Iraq. Welfare is less than 7% of the budget … well, it was until 700 billion was needed to bail out people who are far from being poor. And, yes, Democrats had much to do with that … but not just them. The rising cost of food, gas, healthcare, utilities and much more had their impact as well. And, they have skyrocked in the last four years.
Now, I have been reminded of what the Bible says regarding arguing and I have no intention of filling Laura’s blog with such, so I will bid you goodbye. Because, it is really obvious that there is no talking to you about things and we could argue all day and I am still going to believe what my Bible says.
I was out all day yesterday and missed all this. Even though it’s after the fact, I’d like to put my two cents in. I just can’t agree with the idea that there is any biblical justification whatsoever for socialism. And I write this as one who has been on welfare. I addressed this concept in a post last February. (Huckabee was driving me up a wall.) As for welfare - “welfare” isn’t just AFDC (cash payments) and food stamps. Mandatory entitlement spending including Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid was about 1.4 trillion last year. At twelve billion a month, the entire cost of the Iraq war PLUS Afghanistan is still less than one year of entitlement spending.
That said, while there is no biblical justification for socialism because it draws people away from God, there’s also no biblical justification for the other gazillion sinful things that man does to elevate himself above God. I don’t think socialism is more (or less) evil than those things.
Social Justice, For The Glory of Government
February 11, 2008 by Laura (Edit)| Trackback URI
With all of the populist rhetoric flying around this election season, there are a few themes worth addressing. The idea that the government providing “universal health care” is the Christian thing to do, for example. The idea that Christians should work to compel the government to solve the problem of poverty, for another. I’m told, “It’s not socialism, it’s social justice.”
In what bible verse can I find Jesus telling his disciples to petition the government to forcibly confiscate other people’s money to heal the sick, feed the poor, or buy a cloak for someone who is cold?
I can understand the desire to “do something” when we see someone suffering. I know about poverty first hand – well, about as much as any American will, because obviously even our poor are abundantly wealthy compared to third world countries. I’ve been cold, hungry, underclothed, dirty, and evicted. I did things to get by that I’m still ashamed of today. Anyone who accuses me of being mean or unsympathetic is way off base. We choose, as a society, to have a welfare system, and I have benefited from it and I have supported it. But don’t ever tell me that taking care of the poor in this way is the Christian thing to do, or that Christians should seek to expand it.
Jesus made it clear that the poor “will be with us always.” We’re not going to ever completely solve the problem of poverty. But in spite of that Jesus gave explicit instructions on what we should do about it. And the result of those instructions is that God is glorified. When Christians cede their responsibility to government, God is NOT glorified. Government is glorified. Voluntarily giving in order to show those in need the love of Christ glorifies God. Forcible income redistribution empowers and glorifies government.
We draw people away from God and teach them to depend on government – and further facilitate the weakening of the Church as we fail to obey Jesus’ instructions with regard to the poor. We don’t just harm the poor, we harm ourselves. When Christians see – instead of poverty and a mission field - our commission taken over by government, we don’t see the results of a lost world to the extent that we should. We fail to grieve over these people and fail to get motivated to do OUR JOBS. Why do our hearts break over people in countries far away, who are just as lost as our countrymen – the ones that God placed in our lives and surely wants us to minister to? We neglect our own mission field because the government tends it for us, but government only addresses the problem we see - and we ignore the eternal issues that go unaddressed. I’m not suggesting that we completely abandon the foreign mission field. I’m saying that because government already does so much of our jobs, we fail to tend to the bigger job that He gave us right here at home. If we did our jobs at home, we would be better able to serve other countries.
The question at the heart of the matter is what, exactly, is our mission? Is it to eradicate poverty and to make this world a better place? Or is it to glorify God and enjoy Him forever? How can we best love our neighbor? By teaching him to rely on government, or on God? It’s not social justice. It’s ungodly socialism.
“At twelve billion a month, the entire cost of the Iraq war PLUS Afghanistan is still less than one year of entitlement spending.”
Quite right! I was trying to post this yesterday, but I must’ve exceeded my post limit or something:
$586.1 billion - Social Security
$548.8 billion - Defense[2]
$394.5 billion - Medicare
$294.0 billion - Unemployment and welfare
$276.4 billion - Medicaid and other health related
$243.7 billion - Interest on debt
$89.9 billion - Education and training
$76.9 billion - Transportation
$72.6 billion - Veterans’ benefits
$43.5 billion - Administration of justice
$33.1 billion - Natural resources and environment
$32.5 billion - Foreign affairs
$27.0 billion - Agriculture
$26.8 billion - Community and regional development
$25.0 billion - Science and technology
$23.5 billion - Energy
$20.1 billion - General government
I won’t be voting for Obama strictly based on character which includes his support of infanticide. I think there are better choices than McCain when it comes to fiscal responsibility, however it’s not Obama.
Angel, I think we all know what it means to be a Christian through the teachings of Christ. He spent his life with the lower echelons of society. At the same time I can only imagine what he would think of someone who supports something as disgusting as infanticide.
What I think you’ve missed is that once we begin to compromise our faith and “bend the rules” on something it becomes part of our lives and continues to compromise our judgment. I’m not sure if that’s completely clear but the best example I can think of is Sodom and Gomorrah.
I find it disgusting that “Christians” can spew such judgement. Is this what we are supposed to do? You may have your opinion and base it on facts - but I hope before you go to sleep at night you seriously pray for forgiveness for the awful criticisms you portray here. There is a right way to communicate with others about your feelings and thoughts.
We will all be judged - and if for some reason you think YOU are the one who can pass judgement now - maybe you will regret that later.
Thank you lord for the faith and knowing that YOU are the highest of high. And I pray that when folks call themselves a Christian in your name - they truly understand what that means.
Folks, what I think many Christians are missing is that what makes us true Christians is our relationship with Jesus based on grace through salvation, not some religious rituals or sacraments. This relationship is supposed to permeate every part of our lives as we conform to his image. We’re not to be part time Christians on Sunday and subsequently attempting to compartmentalize our “religious views” apart from our “political” ones is clearly against what we learn in the Bible in giving the Lord all of our heart, soul and mind. If you’re thinking about voting for Obama, take a hard look in the mirror and ask yourself if you believe the Bible is the infallible, inerrant Word of God, or just a nice book with some suggestions. Then you can choose if you’ll evaluate the candidates based on what the Bible says about homosexuality, murder and the like or if you’ll use your best natural judgement apart from God’s Word.
Right, just like Jesus communicated with the moneychangers in the temple, or was careful to tactfully criticize the Pharisees in Matthew 23:27. But in any event, I have certainly not violently attacked anyone or even “yelled” at anyone. I haven’t called anyone names, nor have I insulted anyone (i.e. called Obama supporters stupid, amoral, or anything else.) What I did was express how perplexed I am at your support for Obama, and I listed the reasons why I disagree with that support. And I am STILL perplexed, in spite of (or maybe because of) the reasons provided by Henry and Angel at their blogs. (Click through to read those posts.)
Your argument is predicated on the idea that people are “passing judgment.” Very postmodern of you, Hopeful - you clearly have NO IDEA what it means to pass judgment on someone. Here’s a hint: expressing a contrary opinion is NOT passing judgment.
If you want to know what it is to pass judgment on someone, visit your local courthouse. The judge, when he passes judgment, expresses his opinion and then follows it up with CONSEQUENCES.
Oh, and that passive-aggressive little “prayer” you added at the end, Hopeful, exposes you as unserious and hypocritical. Had it been a sincere prayer, you would have just said it, because you certainly don’t need to type it here for God to know your desires. Instead, it was clearly aimed not at the Lord, but at me and the other commenters - a nice little parting shot, but hardly a prayer.
I am not going to get into a spitting contest like all of you. All I know is that God hates the shedding of innocent blood and the unborn is so innocent. I will stand on the side of God any day. If God hates it I hate it. Not the person but the sin. I do not want to vote for anyone who assists or agrees with the shedding of innocent blood. I don’t care if i loose all my 401K I will be apart of mass murder. I pray the Lord comes soon
May God Bless all of you who fight and bicker.
What happened to my comment. Was it taken away. About The shedding of innocent blood. One of the seven things that God Hates. Not the person but the act. I want no part in voting for a person that allows mass murder in the ninth degree. There are biblical provisions for the death penalty so that argument does not wash. I will not be a partaker in that vote. I would rather live off of nothing than to allow the slaughter of innocent unborn American children. Rape consists of less than 1% so justify it if you can.
Thank you
Vern of Ohio
I’m saddened to see the bitter and resentful back-and-forth that has permeated into the Christian church and among its people….so very sad, imo.
It seems the cliche thing to do — to berate and judge people who are trying to fight for their country and the right to freedom. The irony is the berating and judgment is about how the Christians berate and judge!
People, we are all hypocrites. No one is every going to be perfect. Therefore, people will always find a way to “prove” that you are just a hypocrite by the fact that you made a mistake here or there…
God will open the eyes of those who seek His face. We can only pray that more people seek Him and not the gov’t or anything else to fix their personal situations, the country or the world at large.
I am a Christian who cannot understand how Christians could choose Obama, but I won’t pretend McCain is so much better….I’m starting to wonder about voting at all….
God’s will be done.
Amber
I too wonder about it all. The only difference between McCain and Obama is that McCain is Pro-life. Besides that they all lie, deceive and are politicians. I will vote for McCain on conscience only. Not because he is that good. Plus I am a Viet-Nam era vet and I respect his service.
God Bless
Vern
I oppose abortion as well, but on top of that argument, I also genuinely see capitalism as a moral issue. It is truly sad that so many Christians condone the appeasement and even promotion of covetousness in the name of “social justice.” We have lost our saltiness if we only speak out on issues of sexuality and the right to life while we ignore the God-given right to property.
Obama fails on the issues of life, liberty, and property. It is difficult to “pursue happiness,” as described in our Declaration of Independence, when the government steals upward of half your productivity.
Drew
I agree with your socialist complaint. But remember Jesus said “Render to Ceaser what is Ceasers and render to God what is Gods. It is all God’s No one has the right to over shadow or feel they have any rights over any moral or social injustice but the Lord. But we as mortals think we are as gods. We need to rethink our position .
Thank you
God Bless
Vern
Good Morning everyone!
I am just going to express my opinion one more time on here and then let you decide for yourself. I have been a Christian for 23 years now and got what they say is Born Again”, from a lifestyle of drugs and womanizing. But now that I have been through many church splits and divisions and fights among the brethren, I am wondering if we are not in the Apostate age of the church. Where we make the Gospel out to what we want it to be. We justify our actions. We fight like we are enemies when the only enemy is not flesh and blood but principalities. But it is not what I see and feel. I know all the lingo and all the right words to say. As like many of you. I just know the Lord said “Narrow is the gate that leads to eternal life and few be that find it. Broad is the road that leads to destruction and death and many are on it.” Am I the only one who feels like Obama is like the Pied Piper of this generation. Leading many a people astray. I just know that allowing a leader who does not lead us to the Cross and divides the brother’s and the sister’s is wrong. Now you can shout separation of church and state till the cows come home, but it is not in the constitution. I served our country well from 72 to 79 and I remember the hatred and the vile things back then. The mean spirited rhetoric has gotten more vicious. I pray that the Lord comes soon but i know he is still on the throne and whoever gets to be the president, God is still in charge, even if it leads up to the nuclear Armageddon. After all that is what is going to happen anyway. We might be the last generation after all. It is just my opinion, but I see all the signs. Nobody is naming the day or time so don’t get on that kick. Just thinking about the Apostate church and why we cannot get along.
Thank you and God bless
Vern
Matt, that was beautifully said! That was my train of thought in my feeble post!
We simply can’t replace the Word of God with what society deems as “right” at any given moment in time and “go with the flow”. I think now, more than ever, we’re faced with choosing between what man determines and what the Bible teaches. We can’t split the difference and maintain our relationship with Christ.
As for the comments about judgment…. I don’t recall seeing anyone condemning Obama’s soul to hell? It’s our responsibility to discuss and question our leaders positions in order for us to make sound decisions in choosing them. That’s much different than passing judgment or condemning a soul. Seems there’s some heat emotion involved that’s causing confusion.
OK… My last one. I was looking at passages regarding “questioning” and found 1 John 4:1- 5 and thought it was worth posting in regards to the “judging” comments and my opinion on questioning someone’s stances to help us make sound decisions.
There seems to be a lot of confusion here.
Socialism: There are two polar opposite values at work here: equality and freedom. Under freedom, anything goes and the marketplace rules. In its ugliest form, you end up with sweatshops, child labor, extremes of wealth and poverty, etc. Under extreme equality, everyone gets the same regardless of effort. Incentives to hard work and creativity are removed.
Extremes of freedom = laissez faire (anything goes) capitalism. Extremes of equality = something like China under Mao which we in this country like to call communism. Most countries -including the United States- opt for a middle road which is socialism. Under socialism you allow free markets to function within regulations to stem abuses and damaging greed. Our society is full of socialism: Social Security, child labor laws, OSHA, food safety laws, vaccination laws, Medicare, New Deal banking regulations (removed and now coming back), consumer protection laws, etc., etc. Most of these concepts were put forward in the early 20th century by the American Socialist Party and we now accept them as basic parts of our lives.
Unlike the US where most people receive their insurance from employers because of a fluke of history, most other developed countries from Canada to Japan to Europe also have some type of national health care system.
Most Christians view greed and coveting as evil. Many a sermon argues for treating people with Christian charity and love. In these sermons, love of Christ and fellow human beings is the motivator to action. Socialism in many ways argues for the same things (caring for each other) but does not always include religion as a motivator. A number of European countries though have conservative Christian Socialist parties that see supporting the balanced regulation, services, and public works as part and parcel of being Christian.
Finally, and ironically, this week the conservative Republican Bush administration partially nationalized US banks which were in chaos after banking deregulation dismantled the yes…socialist…regulations put in place after the Depression to prevent it from happening again. The two biggest socialist programs of the last quarter century -bank nationalization and the Medicare prescription drug benefit- both occurred under a Republican president.
I am thoroughly confused why people here would argue you cannot be Christian and vote for Obama. It would seem the sole criteria of whether someone is good/Christian is whether they are pro-life.
Yet, the Bible does not directly address abortion at all. In fact, Judaism believes the soul enters the body only upon birth, and Christianity grew out of Judaism.
On the other hand, the Bible is very clear on adultery. John McCain has admitted to repeatedly cheating on his first wife. He began dating his current and second wife while still married. His fortune comes from Cindy McCain. His first wife, who stood by him while he was a POW and welcomed him home, had become disfigured from a near death car accident while he was in Vietnam. He deserted her and his children for a prettier, wealthier wife. They say the Reagans hated McCain for leaving his first wife like that.
Many Christians now embrace Creation Care, and certainly Obama’s alternative energy plans are better for the environment than McCain/Palin’s continued collusion with Big Oil.
McCain is the son and grandson of elite admirals. He was raised in relative wealth and privilege. He graduated near the bottom of his class in Annapolis after getting into the Naval Academy in part through his family connections.
Obama is the son of a poor white Kansas woman who was abandoned by Obama’s Kenyan father. Obama’s mother and grandparents raised him. His mother worked and went to college on the side to eventually earn a PhD in Anthropology. Her research eventually took her as a professor to Indonesia where she remarried. Obama has relatives now in Kansas, Asia, and Africa. He in turn worked his way through college and law school where he graduated tops in his class.
It may not be necessarily a Christian value, but it is certainly an American value to work your way up by your own efforts. Obama’s mother and then Obama himself reflect these values. Obama has not cheated on his wife through repeated affairs like McCain. The Obamas have one house and one car.
There are as many Christianities as there are Christians. Being pro-life may define your Christianity, but other Christians look to the Sermon on the Mount’s message of love and tolerance. Certainly most Christians do not follow the restrictions on shellfish or pork…and no longer support slavery which the Bible seems to support (at least the Southern Baptists in the 1800s argued such). Quaker Christians -my background along with Southern Baptists- believe in the redemptive message of love in the New Testament and that this core message of love, compassion, and treating others as you would want to be treated ultimately may make moot Biblical ideas from societies 2000 years ago. For instance, not eating shellfish or pork made sense back then because of disease and parasites our meat inspection now makes moot.
Abortion is not the defining concept for the Christianities of most of the people I know. Yet, the majority of these good, church-going Christians tell me they will vote for Obama. They see in his honesty, his demeanor, and his treatment of his wife and children a good Christian man. That others here do not perhaps reflects the news they watch, the political party in which they were raised, the Christianity they hold. I don’t think voting for McCain or Obama defines whether or not you are a Christian.
Jeff, you seem to have some confusion about equality and freedom. Freedom and equality are not at odds with one another; the American ideal of equality of opportunity, that is. If you want equality of outcome - to reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator and call it fair - then that is the goal of socialism for the proletarians. As to Christianity and socialism having anything in common, please scroll up to my comment #14. Socialism directly harms the kingdom of God; it is antithetical to Godliness. It teaches people that the government, not God, is the giver of all good things. Read James; all the direction on how we are to treat people generously - none of that includes forced redistribution. It’s the voluntary sacrificial giving that glorifies God. God’s glory is our function and purpose, not eradicating poverty, which Jesus said plainly is not going to happen.
As to the bible’s view on abortion, it is abundantly clear that babies in the womb are babies, not soul-less hunks of flesh, and that God expects us to protect them. In Exodus, for example, the killing of a baby in the womb is treated the same as the killing of an adult. God knows us in the womb, etc.
There is only one Christianity - imperfectly practiced by all Christians, regardless of denomination.
McCain has repented of his adultery; Obama has not repented of his protection of infanticide. (Again; not even abortion, which I’m still against - infanticide. He was okay with denying medical care to living babies and letting them die in a closet. So even if your argument were true - that the soul doesn’t enter the body until birth - it doesn’t apply here.)
It is ironic in the extreme that you laud Obama for working his way up through his own efforts, when the policies he promises to actually implement are the complete opposite of that philosophy.
I am not a one-issue voter. I’m against abortion, obviously, but I have still voted for candidates who favor abortion. In fact, I intend to vote for McCain who is willing to permit abortion. But the who purpose of my post is that Obama is so extreme he doesn’t just favor abortion. He literally protected infanticide. Not abortion - infanticide. That is absolutely a deal breaker for me - it’s a defining concept of his character, and not a good one.
Laura,
Again, thank you for your blog.
I believe we differ in part because of semantics. In my background, economists and political scientists see political economies as a continuum between anything-goes/laissez faire market economies like you would find on say the black market and command economies like you find in North Korea. At the one end you have unfettered capitalism and on the other you have communism (or state sponsored capitalism via another school of thought). In between you have varying degrees of socialism which mixes free markets with regulations. I may be wrong, but you seem to be talking about communism but calling it socialism? What is phrase you use for the middle ground between unregulated capitalism and communism?
When I hear the word socialism, I think child labor laws, banking regulations, consumer safety laws, vaccination requirements, etc. etc. I certainly don’t see these regulations as evil or in any way un-Christian. Do you?
Sure, it would be great if there were no regulations and everyone played nice, but this often does not happen. To naively wait for humanity to move beyond greed without some social mechanism to deal with greed seems a recipe for disaster. Do you really want to leave it up to chain restaurants to voluntarily keep up sanitation and food safety standards for the food you feed your child?
When the post-Depression banking regulations were removed, the market created these exotic derivative financial tools and started offering mortgages to people who could not afford them. Now we are reaping the fruits of deregulating the banking industry. If all people followed James, we would need no regulations, but we do not.
Again, I think we are at odds over words. You see one Christianity that bridges from racist Christian Identity Aryans to the Amish to Anglicans. When you have some denominations arguing for the execution of gay people and others accepting gay couples as equals to heterosexual couples, I view these as different forms of Christianity, different Christianities.
We obviously disagree about when life begins both as an issue unto itself and also how the Bible speaks to it. Taking a single vague, poetic phrase in the Old Testament as the foundation for a ‘Biblical’ viewpoint on abortion while ignoring other very clear commandments against eating pork, shrimp, etc. is a very slippery slope in my view. You may see a clear foundation for your views on abortion in the Bible based on the Exodus quote. I, however, see no mention of this issue specifically in the Bible. Where do you stand on the purity codes around issues such as eating shrimp, eating pork, wearing cloth of mixed fibers, etc.?
I suspect we hold very different Christian beliefs. Civil discussion of differences, however, I think enriches us and helps us to discern better our own views and beliefs.
PS As Sen. Obama stated again in tonight’s debate, you may be happy to learn he opposes late term abortions if there is an exception for a woman’s life and health.
Jeff, I don’t know where you are from, but public education has held widespread support in America since at least the time of Thomas Jefferson. Any republic based on majority rule requires an educated, wise electorate. Public education may be an element of the socialist platform, but we actually thought of it first.
Laws against child labor are the natural extention of mandatory education. If the kids weren’t going to school, then you’re darn right they oughta be working. In countries with weak educational opportunities, you get sweat shops because the children have nothing better to do than work.
Consumer protection laws and such have little to do with redistributing wealth. Rather, they promote honesty, a Christian virtue. The Bible declares that government exists to bring punishment to evildoers (Romans 13). On this basis, any Christian can support laws against fraud. Regulations of restaurants, consumer protection laws, and most banking regulations fall under this umbrella of punishing dishonesty. (Ayn Rand and die-hard free marketers might argue that such regulations are often unnecessary. Regardless, such regulations are justifiable, even if unnecessary.)
If you really worry about obsolete Jewish dietary laws, try reading Colossians 2:16-17.
Regarding abortion, a mother’s “health” does not justify killing her child. McCain emphasized that point. (And regarding Obama’s vote in the Illinois senate, he just flat out lied — the same way he does with many of his liberal, unpopular views.) After the debate, I heard one pundit mention that Obama actually supports current federal bill which would abolish all restrictions on abortions. The pundit criticized McCain for not bringing that up.
Jeff, what you think of when you hear “socialism” has nothing in common with traditionally accepted definitions of socialism. When I use the word, it is more or less interchangeable with “communism” and this Wiki definition (which is consistent with many other definitions of the word) is what I mean by it:
You write:
Absolutely untrue. But for the sake of argument, why don’t you convince me. Be SPECIFIC; lefty talking points will not suffice. Tell me precisely what effect, and back it up with some kind of proof, that deregulation - I presume you refer to Glass Steagal’s repeal and Gramm-Leach-Bliley, but if not, list the offending legislation - led to this fiasco.
Drew,
Thanks for responding.
A. I did not actually mention public education in my comment. As you point out, however, Christians can and do support government programs and regulations…for you around the issue of promoting education or honesty. People of other faiths…or of no faith…can likewise support the same programs because they promote better communities where people are educated, where food is safer, and where there are measures to deter and punish fraud.
In other words, we appear to agree these programs are good for communities. Why we may support them may differ, we agree public education, consumer safety laws, banking regulations, etc. are in the public’s interest.
B. My point on following some Biblical prohibitions and not others comes down to key arguments in Christianity that have raged for a long, long time. On the one hand, you have people who argue for Biblical literalism and that all of God’s word should be followed. I don’t believe this myself, but I appreciate the clear logic of this approach.
On the other hand, you have Christians who take the very passage from Colossians you posted to evaluate the Bible in light of Christ’s core message of redemption, love, and treating each other as you would be treated. Issues such as slavery, the subservience of women, Ellen and Portia, shrimp cocktails, pork chops, and cotton-polyester blends thus have to be evaluated through WWJD (what would Jesus do)? Again, such an approach has an inner logic to it.
What is a problem for me …my father and I were just discussing this on the phone the other day…are people who insist they follow the Bible literally in all aspects but then pick and choose which issues to highlight and which they deem to be obsolete (using your word but not placing you in this category since I really don’t know).
For example, with so many horrors in this world such as sexual slavery, poverty, child abuse, a raging divorce rate, etc., why has Christian discourse in this country come to focus on abortion and homosexuality? As recorded in the New Testament, Christ says not a single word on either topic. While Laura will point out the 10 Commandments do prohibit killing, murder is listed as a general category and not specifically about infanticide or abortion. Again, neither abortion or homosexuality are mentioned in the Big Ten. There are only a handful or so references dealing with same-sex sexual behavior but far far more governing sex and relationships between opposite-sex couples. There are no mentions of abortion in the Bible other than the passage Laura posted early about “knew you in the womb” which some interpret as linked to abortion.
While I disagree with some of their positions, I do admire the logic of the Roman Catholic church’s teachings on life: no birth control, no abortion, no mercy killings/euthanasia, no capital punishments. No killing of humans or human tissues capable of leading to life…period.
Compare this to my Southern Baptist upbringing which emphasized no abortion, was ok on condoms in marriage, was vague on euthanasia, and supported capital punishment.
My point: consistency of beliefs is important. Can you raise heck over B. Clinton trying marijuana in college and overlook G. W. Bush’s past alcoholism and cocaine use? Can you criticize Brunner (D) for violating certain sections of OH election law and not criticize even more egregious violations by Blackwell (R). If Obama has left repeatedly committed adultery and eventually left his first wife for a rich, beautiful second wife, what kind of grief would many McCain supporters give him for this…regardless of whether he repented these actions?
When we polarize into opposing Team Dem and Team Rep where the other can do no good, our country suffers from the gross hypocrisy and inability to focus on shared issues.
Laura,
As I suspected, we have different views about what the word “socialism” means. I don’t mean “communism”. The Encarta entry on the development of European socialism in the later 20th century in places like Sweden is more in keeping with the definitions I have learned in college:
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761577990/socialism.html
In looking for online sources comparing socialism v. communism, it is clear there is considerable confusing of whether these terms mean the same, are different, etc.
While you would not use the term socialism, do you have a word or phrase you use for a system of government between unregulated capitalism and communism where the government owns everything?
Jeff, the definition of socialism at the encarta link was virtually identical to the one I listed from wiki.
Mine: Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating social or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society.[1][2] Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution which represents the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.[3][4]
Yours: Socialism, economic and social system under which essential industries and social services are publicly and cooperatively owned and democratically controlled with a view to equal opportunity and equal benefit for all. The term socialism also refers to the doctrine behind this system and the political movement inspired by it.
So, whatever. (why are we talking about this again?) Don’t get bogged down in the vocab lesson; just say whatever it is you were trying to say. And I look forward to your explanation why deregulation caused the financial crisis.
Laura,
I think there is plenty of blame to go around for the implosion of our financial markets. No single law or movement created this awful “perfect storm”, but here are some contributors:
1. In 1995 the Republican Congress and President Clinton pushed through revisions to the CRA, Community Reinvestment Act. The goals of this program -to increase the credit available to low income Americans to buy a home- are laudable, but in action Fannie Mae, banks, etc. used compliance with this law as rationale for extending loans to low income people who did not really have the resources to qualify for a mortgage.
2. I indeed would also include the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Financial Services Modernization Act which passed in the post-election tensions of late 1999. In the past, to get a mortgage, you went to a local bank and if you had a 20% down payment, good credit, and a steady job, the bank gave you a 30 year fixed rate mortgage that you paid back to the bank.
After GLB lifted Depression era regulations banning such practices, banks and other financial service companies were able to offer more services, merge, and sell new, exotic financial products.
One result is that now you may go to a local bank or mortgage company to get a loan. The local bank makes its money off your closing costs and by selling your mortgage right after the closing to a larger mortgage company such as Washington Mutual. WaMu (no bought out) in turn would package multiple mortgages into a mutual fund instrument and then sell off shares in the fund. Rather than your local bank owning your mortgage and having a stake in you being able to pay it, your mortgage was now owned by hundreds or thousands of individual investors. Too many banks didn’t care if their clients could pay their loans in the long term because the bank would sell these mortgages within weeks of closing. The big mortgage companies did not care as much because their risk was sold as shares to investors. Individual investors did not care so much as long as returns were good because they were only investing in perhaps 1/10,000th of your mortgage.
It became like a crazy pyramid scheme where everyone made money off SELLING a mortgage and didn’t much care what happened after they go their cut. The whole system only began to crumble with so many people began defaulting.
Both presidential campaigns are pointing to GLB as a culprit by the way:
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2008/09/15/daily81.html
3. I also point to speculation in real estate which drove home prices up so high that home buyers had to take out huge mortgages to buy a home. I heard recently a report on the radio where only about 10% of the people in Los Angeles could afford the cost for a home based on median housing prices there.
4. Finally, when friends and I have individually sought mortgages or HELOCs in the past few years, banks have qualified us for loans far in excess of what we can reasonably pay. There is a point where individuals have to say, “gosh, I really cannot afford a $500K mortgage on a $40K salary”!
I think I read you live in beautiful New Orleans? Hope you are having a great day in the city with America’s best food.
When a candidate pledges to “sign immediately upon taking office” - the Freedom of Choice Act, Christians and all people of good have cause to question the sincerity of the candidate’s determination to reduce abortions, when these already existing limits have caused a decrease of more than 100,000 abortions each year. (cf. Michael New-Matthew Bowman, Combined Reductions in Abortions, with data supplied by NARAL Pro-Choice America)
Passage of FOCA would obliterate virtually all the gains of the past 35 years and cause the abortion rate to skyrocket. Such a candidate is asking voters to discard all the good progress we have made to actually reduce the number of abortions in the last thirty-five years (Abortion is at its lowest rate since 1974). Such a candidate is asking Christians to “give up” on abortion. They want us to deny our conscience and ignore their callous disregard for the most vulnerable human life.
Then add on top of that Sen. Obama wants to lift the restrictions on embryonic stem-cell research and has co-sponsored a bill that would authorize the large-scale industrial production of human embryos for use in biomedical research in which they would be killed.
And Sen. Obama is in favor of the death penalty. As he said in his book, The Audacity of Hope, “I believe there are some crimes–mass murder, the rape and murder of a child–so heinous, so beyond the pale, that the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage by meting out the ultimate punishment.”
And Sen. Obama has gone well out of his way to promised to prosecute the war in Afghanistan more vigorously by sending 10,000 EXTRA U.S. Troops, making incursions into Pakistan if necessary. More WAR!!!
Given these four points, I don’t know how a Christian can vote for him.
Jeff, the 1995 changes were administrative, not legislative. Quit passing the blame off your man Clinton.
The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (and real estate speculation, too) should only present a problem if you coerce banks into making bad loans to poor people and minorities — which is exactly what Bill Clinton and Janet Reno did. Once you use socialist policies to create a bubble, it makes (some) sense for investors to try to ride that bubble. But you shouldn’t blame the investors when socialist policies created the situation in the first place.
My points about regulation was that Christians can legitimately support regulation to discourage fraud. When you venture into redistributing wealth, however, that crosses the line into ungodly socialism, class warfare, and the promotion of covetousness.
It sickens me that “Christians” , hide behind their religion to spew hate and intolerance. We have just gone through 8 years of G.W Bush, clearly it will go down as the worst presidency in the history of the United States. Our Economy has tanked due to the greediness within the administration. We are stuck in a war with seemingly no end. Healthcare is a mess. Our foreign policy is a trainwreck. Hurricane Katrina…hello? Where is the positive? If we base this on “Roe v. Wade”, I’m sorry it won’t be overturned. Fact, the economy runs better with democrats in power. The only people that will be taxed more make over $250,000 and it’s only a tax of 3% additional. Someone has to pay off the enormous debt “W” created. Thanks for voting him in, clearly your judgement is not to be listened to after you pushed for Bush last time.
Eric, your BDS is showing. Hey, look! I can assert stuff too! -
Dubya’s presidency certainly will NOT go down in history as the worst. Our economy has not tanked due to any greediness. In point of fact, it grew like gangbusters for most quarters after the brief slowdown after 9/11. There never was a recession by the classical definition of the word; the economy DID NOT contract at any point. It just sometimes grew at a slower pace. This is a FACT - when you look at the raw numbers it is undeniable. Unless you suffer from a serious case of BDS or Krugmania (but I repeat myself.) Perhaps you refer to the greediness of Democrats like Dodd who took sweetheart mortgages and tons of money from Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac, or Obama, who took his sweetheart land deal from convicted felon Tony Rezko and more money from FM/FM than anyone, and stymied the efforts of Bush and the GOP to reform the GSEs.
We have the best healthcare in the world, which is why people come here from other countries to get it. Our foreign policy is as well as can be expected.
Hurricane Katrina? I LIVE in N’awlins and whatever you think you “know” about Katrina, if it’s the standard Kos Kidz garbage, is WRONG.
And if you want to see what’s behind the enormous debt, look at this.
The economy does not run better with Democrats in power. Clinton’s “fabulous” economy was matched or beaten on just about every metric by the “terrible” Bush economy. Clinton’s so called “essentially full employment” rate was lower under Dubya, for example. The difference is that the media reports it differently under a GOP administration. We enjoyed lower employment and greater growth for most of the last eight years and the media simply did not report it honestly - but the raw numbers don’t lie. Look at this chart from Business Week for a snapshot of what I’m talking about.
Stop drinking the KoolAid, Eric - if you’re able. Do some research and find out the truth.
You all who are so against programs to help the downtrodden need to read the book of Acts. The church shared all they had with other believers so no one would be without. Drew you say anyone who supports Obama supports covetous greed. You must be kidding? We support sharing and helping the down and out just as Christ would. Covetous greed would be the republicans who are all for the people at the top of the corporate ladder getting richer and richer at the expense of the hardworking regular people. Being unwilling to share with other people in need, that sounds pretty greedy to me. What got us into the financial mess we are in today is this stupid unnecessary war of George Bush’s and the greed of corporate heads! Not funding housing or helping people in need.
Kathy, read my comment #14. There is NO, repeat, NO BIBLICAL JUSTIFICATION for forced income redistribution. Furthermore, forced income redistribution - as from failing miserably, see Zimbabwe for more - harms the church in every possible way.
So Laura, you don’t plan on using Social Security then when you become age 65? How about health insurance? Do you take advantage of that? Just wondering….???
You want to know the truth? No one grows richer at the expense of anyone else (except thieves). When you pay your grocer for the food sitting in your cart, is he growing richer and richer at your expense? When you pay your doctor to heal you, is he growing rich at your expense?
On the other hand, when some lazy person votes for a socialist politician who will give them more handouts, that lazy person is growing richer at the expense of everyone else. And at the same time, he is destroying his own soul by embracing envy, and by fostering his own laziness instead of his ambition.
Regarding your last post:
Health insurance is an investment that you pay for.
Social Security is a bad investment the government forces you to pay for.
Social Security isn’t going to be available when it’s time for me or my husband to retire, Kathy. It’s unlikely to carry my mother through her retirement, in fact, so I’m making arrangements for her to come live with me a few years. This, in spite of the fact that my husband, my mother and I have collectively paid into that system for over a century. (All of us started working at 14 or 15 years old.)
Do I “take advantage” of the health insurance we pay through the nose for? Why, yes, after my $5,050 deductible and the addtional $1,100 worth of 80/20 coverage, if it’s not yet December 31 you might say we “take advantage” and make claims on the policy we pay for.
Did you have a point to make?
Let me be Honest With You. For all things I give thanks to God.
You know my name. I am a Sinner. I am Saved through the promise of Our Lord Jesus Christ. I am Pro-Life, I am Anti-Abortion. I believe in One God. I believe the Apostle’s Creed . I am lead here by, 2 Corinthians 4:13-15.
This Country is Divided. The Church is divided. The world is divided. The economy, moral and social structure is in disarray.
Brothers and Sisters the battles are many, the enemy is at the door. Obama calls for “unity”. McCain attacks and spreads fear and division.
This is where my prayer 1 Corinthians 11:26-34 has lead me.
My Christian brothers and sisters, The Battles are many, the Enemy is at our door. In the last 8 years this is what I see:
Let us never forget 9/11/2001. The worst terrorist attack on our homeland.
2 active wars, 1 with “failed” information and no-bid contracts.(Haliburton and their greed and corruption)
Massive debt and trade deficits to China and the House of Saud. (Bush has deep ties to both)
Over a million jobs lost this year alone.
Over 1 million homes in foreclosure this year alone, almost 14 million total.
A trillion dollar bailout of the Banks.
Corruption in the Churches, corruption in Washington, corruption in the State, corruption at the local level, corruption in the workplace, corruption in the home, corruption in the Banks, Wars, rumors of wars, violent storms, droughts, floods, tornadoes. The enemy is at the door. Certainly suspect too is the Bush/McCain involvement with banks; Andrew McCain(failed SilverState bank, Neil Bush(failed Silverado), Jeb Bush(consultant to failed Lehman brothers), Marvin Bush(Winston Capital Management),,John McCain( investigated for abuse of power),etc,,,etc,,,etc,,, The enemy is at the door, the battles we Christians face are many.
Drug epidemics, gangs, prostitution and corruption, are illegal, yet we have not made progress in this battle by making these things illegal. We must bring peoples hearts and souls to our Lord and Savior.
During the first debate, Obama said to John McCain, “if you’re going to tell lies about me, I’m going to have to tell the truth about you”.
Obama also said, “Nobody is Pro-Abortion”. At the Alfred Smith fundraiser and “roast”, Obama, as one of the “jokes” said, “Here is another revelation-John McCain Is on to something. There was a point in my life when I started palling around with a pretty ugly crowd. I’ve got to be Honest, these guys were serious deadbeats, they were low life’s, they were unrepentant no good punks. That’s right, I’ve been a member of the US Senate (uncomfortable laughter from the crowd). Come to think of it John, I swear I saw you at one of our meetings”.
How can “we” win the battle if our leaders are corrupt? Yes, I believe John McCain along with the Bush family is part of this culture of corruption.
I believe that Barrack Obama will lead the charge to rid Washington of this corruption, and in turn rid our national institutions of corruption and that will enable us to unite in our fight against evil.
Many say it is a battle between good and evil. In 1 Corinthians 14:8, Paul, teaches us For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
Obama said, “This is election is not about me, it is about you”.
This is why I speak, this why I will Stand Up for Change We Can Believe In. This is why I voted for Barrack Obama.
My prayers have lead me to Hope and away from hate. My faith leads me to not only vote, but to support Obama’s campaign with conviction.
Hope or Hate? You chose. Sad that this would occur in a place called Bethlehem. Reminds of another angry crowd calling for the death of an innocent man, 2000 years ago.
I’m really curious as to where in any of these comments is the word ‘faith’.God says that if we only have faith the size of a mustard seed that we can move mountains.I believe in voting moraly and voting for the man with the most morals first and formost and then let god do the rest.To be a christian and vote for an imoral man just because he says he can lower gas,end war and etc,would you want a atheist running youre church just because he said he could bring in more money or build you a bigger church.I know i wouldnt.But yet there are christians that will vote for Obama knowing what kind of person he is and that everything he stands for is against god,thinking he can make things better.But im sorry only god can do that,and whatever happened to one nation under god,I believe we should do our research on the man himself and his beliefs and just what he stands for.And then let god do the rest.
I have NEVER commented on the web, but since today’s my birthday, I decided I could (:. She asked the same question on how a christian can vote for Obama. That’s been my question all along. However in my church, about half are worried about the economy , thier pocketbooks, thier wealth, ect and so am I. I said your putting your faith in a “man” where the true answer is putting your faith in God. Still came back with , well, I cant afford this and that, The almighty $$$$’s God is my provider , not the president. If we’re faithful to God and am truely!!! seeking Holiness, than there’s only One Choice and that is McCain. Well my friends at church states , well, Palin is not qualified to be President if it ever comes to that. REALLY, Let’s see, HMMM Bill Clinton was a Governor before, Ronald Reagon was a Governer , HMMMM guess they wasn’t qualified.
I was adopted at birth, my birth mother Chosed to have me, give me up for adoption instead of abortion. AM I PRO-LIFE?? Oh YES and thank God for a mother who chosed Life. BTW, 10 years ago, I’m 60, found my birthmother and it was a reunion full of tears and joy.
I CANNOT with my spiritual upbringing vote for Obama, so I choise McCain.
Jack
Yes Drew, there are people growing richer at our expense. They don’t charge a fair price for the goods or services they render. They gouge people and charge ridiculous prices. So yes I do believe there are people getting rich at other’s expense. You sound really like a very angry person Drew. Trying to understand that? Do you think everyone is lazy? There should be no social programs? What would your answer be then to a child born with multiple disabilities and its found abandoned? Should we let that child die then because it cannot afford to pay for the doctors and care it needs or its support - i.e feeding, clothing etc? Who then pays for that Drew? How about a woman whose husband either leaves her or dies unexpectedly and she has four kids. She has to feed them and put a roof over their head and try to be a mom and a dad to those kids? She makes 7 to 10 dollars an hour yet rent here in FL would be around 800 to 1000 a month for a home to live in. That doesn’t include food, water, lights, clothing, car expenses to get to the job, daycare…. who helps her the Drew? Is it just her tough luck? She isn’t ambitious enough? Too lazy though she is working two jobs and never sees her kids and still cannot make ends meet? What about that????? Who helps her?
GOD and THE CHURCH and YOU help her. Not Barack Obama. Barack Obama is not God.
But here’s a hint, Kathy: There’s no such thing as an unfair price. You want to know why? Because none of these merchants have to sell you anything. If you want medical prices to go down, why aren’t you a doctor? You seem to think these people owe their services to everybody. Why didn’t you go to medical school? You could give out your services for $10 an hour. I don’t think it’s “fair” how little you’re contributing to the public health.
Of course I don’t think everyone is lazy. I think that if you want something belonging to someone else, you either pay for it, or you do without. If you don’t have enough money to pay for it, you work harder to get more money, or you do without. What God condemns is coveting or stealing from others. Read Proverbs 30:8-9. It condemns stealing, even if you’re poor.
Now let’s look at 1 Samuel 9-18:
Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. He said:
“This is what the king who will reign over you will do . . . He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. . . . He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day.”
Man, I wish I could have a king who only took a tenth of my labor!
How can you accuse anyone of being a lesser Christian because of political affiliation.
Political Parties are nothing more than opposite sides of the same evil coin. We as Christians should understand that no establishment of God is perfect, and especially in the case of politics, reek with compromises, deceit, and false pretense.
While, I too, abhor abortion, our vision is too limited to party lines. Please look beyond your party, look beyond your town, and see beyond this country.. God created this world and Jesus died for everyone on this planet, not just American Christians!!!
How about the housands of children who are dead or orphaned in Iraq from our bombs, rising terrorism, disease, and hospitals that continue to lose their electricity.
Do you think God only cares for American Children? Do you think he does not care for Children in Iraq?
Jesus didn’t just DIE for us, but he also LIVED for us Jesus did not LIVE like the self-righteous Christians who rarely venture out of their congregation or country and just criticize far-away people and cultures they do not know.,
He did not stay in the Synagogues and speak ill of the unbelievers outside, he was among those outside, teaching them, and blessing them…
God Loves everyone, and He came as Jesus and Died as the Lamb for ALL people.. not just Bible-wielding Americans in the Mid-West..
How can you vote for the party that put Corporate Profits above human life? At least, in Obama’s case, it is still up to the mother to decide on life…
Though, I hope every mother chooses life, the mothers in Iraq did not have a choice when the life support systems of their newborns suddenly turned off….
As EXXON rakes in the profits, children there continue to die and become orphans….
What of those Children? Or don’t they matter to you? I’m sure they matter to God….
SORRY in my last post I wrote,
‘no estabishment of God is perfect’,
I meant to write,
‘No establishment of Man is perfect’
Any “Christian” who supports Obama is not a real christian. They do not belive in the bible and are slapping our Lord in the face. Any christian who supports Obama also supports abortion and homosexuality. Its that simple. You can not change God and the bible to support your beliefs. That is called Idolitry and any one who does that will face the Lord on judgement day. Obama will not help the middle class by raising taxes on business. Who do you think will pay those taxes, not business, the middle class will when they raise the prices of sevices and products we use. Small business will lay off workers causing more unemployment and big buisness will move out of the country where it is cheaper. We will support those who refuse to work for there money because Obama will give them our money. The bible states “Those who will not work,Shall not eat” Thats biblical.I am an Iraq veteran and when Obama pulls our troops out of Iraq ,the terrorists will be blowing up bombs on our freeways. I am ashamed to be a veteran because of Obama. The USA will not survive another 100 years because we are no better than Sodom. We will destroy ourselves and fake christians who support Obama are helping us along. Satan is laughing at us. His plan is working. Obama is evil and he and all who support him will face the Lord on judgement day. I prey Obama does not win, GOD BLESS AMERICA.
Before you compare killing babies with war, Bernard, read this. And watch this video - if you’ve got the stomach to face what you’re supporting.
If by your argument that you can not be truly Christian and vote Obama, what do you say to the fact that 96% of African-Americans will vote for Obama. In addition African-Americans go to church at a rate higher than the majority community and many of African-Americans who will vote for AA Obama are professing Christians. Many African-American ministers of the Gospel who have dedicated their lives in service to the Kingdom of God, will not only vote for, but encourage others to do so. Many of people who were lost in sinful lifestyles have found redemption and salvation under the guidance of these African-American preachers. Many African-American Christians serving the Kingdom through prayer, worship and Christian service will vote for Obama. So are you saying all these people have no authentic relationship with God, because they vote for Obama. Are you saying that all these people have not had an authentic baptism of the Holy Spirit because they vote for Obama? Are you saying that thier salvation experience and the reception of God’s grace is not authentic because they vote for Obama. Are you saying that 96% of African-Americans do not know God, but you do because you do not vote for Obama? That is not the Jesus I know and see at work everyday in the community that I live. An inner city community that has been forsaken by the privlidged, but still stand because of the grace of Almighty God.