I’ve been reading Ultraguy’s posts at New Wineskins with interest for quite a while, as he inches closer to outright saying that he believes Obama is the Antichrist. I think he’s wrong, not just for the reasons in this somewhat snarky post, but for other (scriptural) reasons as well. At some point I may do a serious post on that. Any extra-biblical “proof” I’m just discounting out of hand; there’s been a TON of that over the ages and it’s all been wrong, wrong, wrong. For example I don’t assign any more importance to the “Yes we can – thank you Satan” recordings than I did when my friends played records backward to prove that Paul was dead. Even Martin Luther was dead wrong about the Antichrist’s identity; people like Irvin Baxter make their living off predicting and “proving” the identity, and they have done so for hundreds of years. All wrong. There are some specific biblical prophecies about this, and they are the only proof that matters.
Much as I dislike him and his polices, and yes, I do hope he fails – Obama doesn’t qualify. Your mileage may vary, of course. In the end, I agree with Ultraguy that people are going to believe whatever they’re going to believe, and there’s little use beating their heads in with continual arguing about it. Nor do I wish to start a blog war over it. I’ve enjoyed New Wineskins for some time and linked to it often, and I’ll continue to do so as long as he keeps posting. Time will prove someone right eventually – namely, when someone brokers, then breaks halfway through, a seven year peace treaty with Israel.
Regardless, if he really does believe it, I look forward to hearing about some pretty phenomenal changes in Ultraguy’s life. After all, if this really IS the literal end of the world, then that would necessarily lead to some pretty radical life changes – rather like a terminal cancer diagnosis would. (Except in this case, you’d be the one who would get to live, and everyone else is about to die – all the more impetus to Stop! everything else and really minister to people.) If that circumstance didn’t lead to a radical life change of some sort – and I mean of the dramatic “sell your house and become a missionary” kind of change, not just “skip Dancing with the Stars and instead volunteer at the soup kitchen and blog about John 3:16,” then I’d be forced to conclude that it’s just political trash talk. Which I don’t think is happening in Ultraguy’s case. I think he’s really sincere. (Just incorrect.)
All of which brings me to the point of this post. Why would a sincere, believing Christian wait for that kind of radical life change until they were sure that these were the end times and the Antichrist had been identified? After all, aren’t people dying every day? Aren’t they living in misery, without the peace and comfort only Jesus can bring?
I’m already going Galt, shutting down my business, scaling back my life in ways that a year ago I could not have imagined. Right now I’m hunkering down, much like Ultraguy has been, watching and waiting – and praying. I, too, have a sense that I’ve been called elsewhere.
Oh, I’ve enjoyed politics a LOT – a wholly worldly preoccupation, because let’s face it, God’s not a Republican or Democrat, He’s a monarchist. I think that sort of thing matters a great deal in the short term, and over the next two years as Obama’s policies take effect, everyone will learn exactly how much they do matter. People wanted change, and they’re going to get it, as Mencken put it, “good and hard.” But in the larger sense, the eternal sense, it’s pretty irrelevant. Certainly God will use the upcoming hard times for His glory; perhaps even more than our prosperity. The church in China and in North Korea has grown tremendously; there are more Christians in China now than there are Communists.
This whole pursuit of holiness – it’s always been a journey and it always had a destination. I’m not sure what the next stop is but if this is not the beginning of the end, it is at least the end of the beginning.
G’morning! Thanks for the links & ‘ink’.
Happy Holy Week!
I find it remarkable that so many are feeling, at the same time, a tug… an urgency to be bold for Christ in these days (whether they are, in fact, the last ones or not). It is sad, in a way, that it should come to this to bring people to the foot of the throne, but as scripture tells us, the last worker hired is just as good as the first.
Ultimately, it doesn’t matter which of us is right about BHO, and we are wise not to fall into the trap of getting our knickers in a knot with one another when there is a great ripe harvest to bring in. The key is that urgency, that clarity, that desire to accept and extend the invitation of the One True God who revealed himself in Jesus. I love the China statistic, btw… missed that one. I love cross-over points!
One thought to keep in mind re. the Paul-is-dead thing and others like it is the fallacy of ‘black swan’ reasoning (to borrow a concept from Nicholas Taleb). I.e, the presence of many white swans does not disprove the existence of a black one. It is the same apologetic that is necessary to disprove uniformitarianism and crack the door open to Christ’s claims amidst a cacophony of voices that would say he is just another prophet.
I would find it consistent with the character of the dark one to throw out lots of radar-jamming decoys (like the Beatles thing) for the precise purpose of getting folks to guffaw and dismiss the real signs when they come.
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While not ready to proclaim Obama the anti-Christ, I found your “snarky” post and it’s 4 proofs unconvincing, that is, I’m not ready to say he isn’t either.
In addition to the “added” update with regards to Foxfier you made on that post (comments closed, which is why I feel compelled to say some thing about it here),
I would point out that your 2nd reason, no false prophet, could be wrong also.
Consider the possibility the MSM is the one promoting Obama, that is, the false Prophet.
In my opinion, the news coverage, from the exaggerations of brilliance to the utter lack of curiosity with regards of everything from his school grades to his associations with very questionable people, has been astoundingly unlike anything I have ever even imagined. Comedians on late night TV won’t even crack a joke at his expense! The slavish devotion of the whole world, as depicted by the world news agencies, make Joseph Goebbels efforts look pathetic.
Anyway, I would caution you against sounding the all clear. Bad as it has been when in times past men have mistakenly proclaimed the end is here, how much worse it would be to rest comfortably in the mistaken belief that it isn’t!
The media generally treats him like they treat all Democrats – with adoration and a total lack of curiosity. But Jon Stewart – surprisingly! – has mocked him, as has Leno. Not like the did Bush, but still, they have taken a crack at him. And the slavish devotion is waning away – in Europe this week he was slammed pretty hard quite a few times.
There are quite a few prophecies regarding the Antichrist, and whoever the person is has to fulfill ALL of them. I’m willing to be convinced. So, convince me. Seriously – please explain how Obama fulfills Daniel 7:24, Revelation 13:1-2, and Revelation 17:11. Because I’m just not seeing it.
It’s a sad fact of early Christian history that the premillennialists (Tertullian, Montanus, Hippolytus) tended to advocate withdrawal from society, as well as asceticism and extrabiblical legalism. You can interpret Revelation however you want, but Laura’s right — Make sure you don’t turn out like those idiots.
I am not a prophet, and will not pretend I can interpret Gods prophesies. My point was, I see danger in dismissing the possibility out of hand because at this time you do not clearly see the relation.
Many in the time of Christ didn’t see Jesus as the One, because they interpreted Messiah prophesies to mean Christ would overthrow Rome and establish an earthy kingdom for the Jews. They compelled Pilate to release Barabbas instead of Jesus because they misread the prophesies, and didn’t see how Jesus was their fulfillment.
As others have pointed out, whether Obama is the anti-Christ or not shouldn’t affect your walk with God, but it would be nice to know, and I would also remind you, Satan is called the great deceiver for a reason…
Your synopsis is right on the money, Laura. it would seem to me any actualization of the antichrist WOULD mean that we need to get out there and start spreading the Gospel even more, with more fervor regardless of what may come of it. THAT would be the actual test for any antichrist, who would zoom in to squelch such an uprising of faith. My conclusion is that the more people come to really know Christ, the more the antichrist will become apparent.
lee, I think that’s a bit disingenuous to say that you won’t pretend you can interpret God’s prophecies. By having an opinion at all – by even considering whether Obama might be the antichrist – you’re doing that very thing! In any event, I’m not against having opinions on who the antichrist might be, I’m just making the case that Obama clearly doesn’t fit what the bible says.
Shimauma, interesting point! I think you’re right – it WILL become apparent over time, and I think you’re right that there will be a certain snowball effect – as it becomes clear who the antichrist is, Christians will react accordingly, and accordingly be persecuted for it, which will make it more clear, generate more reaction, etc. I hadn’t thought about it in quite those terms before, but it makes sense. I also don’t want to make the mistake Drew points out – withdrawal from society – though I’m definitely in favor of a certain level of asceticism in line with the Christian hedonism that I (at least, try to) practice.
Disingenuous? That’s just hurtful!
I’m just trying to say it would be best to keep an open mind.
Mat 24:42 “Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
Mat 24:43 “But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into.
Mat 24:44 “Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Okay, Lee… just to recap – in your first comment (#2), you explained why I was wrong about my belief that Obama is not the antichrist and suggested I should not rule him out – you think that the media may qualify as the false prophet referenced in the apocalyptic bible verses. So you tried to apply biblical prophecy.
I responded by listing prophecies which rule Obama out and invited you to explain how he meets those qualifications (i.e. prove me wrong.) You said in your #5 that you “will not pretend I can interpret Gods prophesies.” In other words, you refuse to engage in a substantive argument about the actual biblical prophecies which apply to the antichrist.
When I suggested that you’re trying to have it both ways – cherrypicking reasons why Obama might be the antichrist and ignoring disqualifying prophecies, you complain that I’m being hurtful, and quote verses intended to shut down debate. i.e. the bible says we won’t know exactly when Jesus is coming, so we need to stop wondering who the antichrist is! Or at least not rule anybody out.
a) that’s nonsensical. We’re called to watch and pray and be aware of the signs of the times, and
b) that’s mighty convenient for you to quote those verses now that your argument has been exposed as lacking.
Lee, you can’t have it both ways; suggesting that Obama might be the antichrist and then refusing to deal with proof that he is not. It looks to me like you’re keen to accuse Obama of being the antichrist to a non-critical, accepting audience, and the minute you get some pushback, you want to drop the whole topic. That certainly seems disingenuous to me. Perhaps you’re not engaging in political hackery or mobyism to try to make Christians look bad. Perhaps you uncritically fell into this line of thinking because you dislike Obama as much as I dislike him and you’re eager to believe any bad thing about him, and now you just don’t want to let it go. Perhaps you recently read the Left Behind series and just enjoy the drama; I have no idea what’s motivating you here. But if you are honest, you will take a second look at what you’re doing and you will stop it.
I can’t stand the guy, and believe me, part of me would just LOVE It if he were the antichrist. Then I could detest him and oppose him unconditionally. No more shades of gray or trying to give the benefit of the doubt – he’s literally working for the devil! No holds barred! Furthermore, as I’ve stated in other posts, that’s pretty much the ultimate game-changer, and the prophecies about revival and the condition of the church in the last days are thrilling. My excitement about being part of that is nearly matched by my terror, but overall, YES, bring it on! Except that biblically, I’m convinced he’s not the man, and I’ve cited some evidence to prove that.
If you honestly believe that Obama could be the antichrist, then make your case and prepare to defend it. But you’re not going to post vague, trutherish “just raising questions” comments here and have them go unopposed.
OK, recap:
You said unequivocally Obama wasn’t the anti-Christ. I cautioned you about assuming all biblical prophecy that was made about the anti has come to pass, even if the anti has started what he is going to do.
I never claimed to be interpreting prophecy, I said there is a possibility the MSM could be the false prophet, as an example of how a prophecy could be fulfilled in a way we can’t divine at this time. Lots of equivocating.
if Obama is the anti-Christ, he may not get all his ducks in a row til his 2nd term, and the prophecies wouldn’t be fulfilled til then. I don’t know, I’m saying I don’t know, but I have a feeling it is a possibility that bears watching.
I think I have commented here in good faith, with respect and manners, if not great understanding in your opinion. I tried humor with the “just hurtful” thing. Perhaps I jumped in deep waters on a whim (I came here via newineskins, who I only recently discovered via the anchoress) when I should have kept my yap shut. If so, I apologize. I think, however, you have been overly critical and too eager to ascribe bad motives with too little provocation, leading me to wonder if you are looking for a fight when I was merely looking for conversation, in which case I will remove myself from the conversation lest I torment your soul further.
God bless, and peace sister.
Lee, I also have commented in good faith, with respect and manners. Don’t read too much into “tone” – for example, I had absolutely no idea you considered that “hurtful” comment as a joke. No smilie, no nothing; if you meant it as a joke I had no way to tell it. As far as I was concerned you were quite serious, and I responded seriously.
Going back and re-reading your comments, I still do think you’re trying to have it both ways. You’re interpreting prophecies to defend keeping the door open on the concept, and simultaneously refusing to interpret it where the door is closed. (And yes, you’re interpreting scripture; there’s no mystery about reading the verses and forming an opinion about them, which we have both done.) I don’t think you’re a bad person or even a liar. I think like anybody else, including me, you don’t like being told you’re wrong and here I am telling you you’re wrong, so you’re trying to defend a position. I responded to defend my position after your #2 when you told me I was wrong. That’s how it works; it’s not something I take personally. I welcome people deconstructing my arguments because if they don’t stand up to honest, rigorous criticism then obviously I need to reconsider what I’m saying.
As to whether I’m overly critical – perhaps so… Certainly I have strong opinions and a willingness to defend them. I dearly love a good argument. Iron sharpens iron, etc… I call what we have been having a conversation, a debate; not a fight. Obviously YMMV… but I’m not in the least angry or upset. If you are, well, that wasn’t my intention. In any event, it’s stupid to argue about arguing. If you want to duke it out wrt to these scriptures and others and Obama’s potential antichristness, I’m all for that. If not, best wishes, good luck, and please, rest easy: you haven’t tormented my soul.